If you thought this was all put to rest after the acquittal of Phil Zimmerman decades ago, think again.
According to a Washington Post story in September, an Obama administration working group spent months coming up with a list of technological methods to defeat encryption. One idea — particularly abhorrent to computer security professionals — was to force companies to send malware to suspects’ phones using automatic software updates. theintercept.com/2016/02/26/fbi-vs-apple-post-crypto-wars/
This issue with Apple really has me torn. For the first time in a long time I don't have a strong opinion in either direction.
On the one hand, no corporation should be able to stand against the department of justice. Perhaps it will take an escalating court battle, but ultimately if Apple loses and is compelled to comply, someone should go to prison if they fail to do so.
On the other, I'm no fan of government gaining power either.
I AM a fan of due process, because there are rotten people in both places, and Absolute Power Corrupts, Absolutely.
Not sure I'm a fan of the federal government spending our tax money to find ways to defeat encryption - so as to take control over its citizens, though. Seems to be the antithesis of freedom, no?
I have an idea: EDUCATION. Educate people to think morally, to think responsibly, to be good citizens, to know that honesty pays back hugely.
-Noel
Author of the "How to Configure the 'To Work' Options" series of Windows books. Not feeling enough love to do one for Windows 10.
This is too important to be on the fence. ALL computer security people are against this idea. Snowden proved that we cannot trust the government or oversight by congress. At a minimum this needs to go through the court system, and result in public hearings and legislation with oversight controls, which even Bill Gates advocates for.
The assumption with this particular phone is that they used a four digit passcode. The FBI has already screwed up the data by trying to unlock it by changing the user password. If they would have left it alone it would have possibly backed up to iCloud and they would have the data. If the user chose a 11 digit passcode, rather than the standard 4 digit, it would take the FBI some 250 years to unlock it by brute force, which is what they are asking for. These terrorists, destroyed all their other data, so what makes them think that they left a phone (his work phone) behind laying in a car with anything on it. This is an attempt by the FBI, not to unlock this phone, but to put an end to encryption as we know it.
The FBI picked this case specifically, rather than the other 125 cases pending, because they think they can hide behind national security to keep this discussion closed to the public. If we give them this wedge, there will be no privacy whatsoever unless you choose use one of the many encryption options available from overseas vendors. Which is exactly what criminals would do.
This issue with Apple really has me torn. For the first time in a long time I don't have a strong opinion in either direction.
On the one hand, no corporation should be able to stand against the department of justice. Perhaps it will take an escalating court battle, but ultimately if Apple loses and is compelled to comply, someone should go to prison if they fail to do so.
On the other, I'm no fan of government gaining power either.
I AM a fan of due process, because there are rotten people in both places, and Absolute Power Corrupts, Absolutely.
Not sure I'm a fan of the federal government spending our tax money to find ways to defeat encryption - so as to take control over its citizens, though. Seems to be the antithesis of freedom, no?
I have an idea: EDUCATION. Educate people to think morally, to think responsibly, to be good citizens, to know that honesty pays back hugely.
-Noel
I understand the dilemma here too. As you said, absolute power corrupts absolutely, be it the feds, the crooks, or even Apple/Google/Microsoft. And then there's hackers.
Here are my positions on the issue:
No blanket backdoors should ever be made to encryption or device security. There should be no single master key to be shared/leaked for all devices or a series of devices.
The device manufacturer should have part of the device key, and the rest should be stored on the device with no ability to access it without physical access to the device.
If the feds physically seize a device and want it unlocked, the device manufacturer must unlock it upon physical receipt of the device, using the combined key data.
Of course, how to implement something like this retroactively on devices already "out and at large" is the real issue. Again, if the feds physically have a device and turn it over to the manufacturer, I say that the manufacturer must unlock it, even if it requires hacking/infecting the device. Their fault they didn't think this though or thought that they were above upholding the law. The line should be drawn at the feds not being allowed to ever get a copy of these hacks by any method at all.
But yes, I do have a sneaky suspicion that Mike could be right and that the San Bernardino case is about more than just those criminals.
Last Edit: Feb 27, 2016 14:10:16 GMT -6 by Techie007: Fixed formatting
Microsoft, is Windows 10 the best you could do? Really? After promising to listen to our feedback, what a letdown!
"•The device manufacturer should have part of the device key, and the rest should be stored on the device with no ability to access it without physical access to the device."
I don't like this idea at all. The government could just subpoena the device. Someone would hack Apple and get this key. Hackers would steal phones, people would kill people to get their phones.
What people forget is that law enforcement has access to 99% of what they need to solve and prevent crime. There is no evidence that this last one percent will accomplish anything that they cannot do now. As much chest puffing as they do, our whole Homeland Security is actually pretty bad except when framing people like they did with the Fort Dix guys a few years ago, as well as many others. Meanwhile they are breaking their arms, patting themselves on the back while doing a really bad job.
Keep in mind that law enforcement knew the Boston Bombers, the Paris shooters and they knew the San Bernardino shooters. Perhaps putting more focus on using what they have access to rather than trying to get everything, we all would be better served. I believe this is exactly what Ed Snowden recommended years ago.
very interesting read, fellas. I am with Apple on this one. my experiences dictate that if you give the Govt an inch, they take 10 miles and they DO NOT stop pushing. so I believe that whats on that phone isnt going to make any bit of differece towards the investigation of those terrorists, BUT , it will further errode our privacy rights and make it "just that much easier" for big-daddy to take what they want from us without and hinderances!
Last Edit: Feb 28, 2016 8:25:19 GMT -6 by dozerguy
A locked phone used by a dead terrorist initially may have seemed like the perfect test case for law enforcement to argue that it needs ways to get around advanced device security.
But authorities may have picked the wrong phone after all. It’s becoming increasingly clear that law enforcement doesn’t really think there’s any important data on San Bernardino killer Syed Rizwan Farook’s iPhone and that it has more precedent-setting value than investigative value.
Seems we have an overall tendency to lean against the government (some of us on the fence, some of us pro-Apple).
Seems interesting that we have reached a stage where we feel personal privacy is already threatened so badly by government that we'd rather have bad guys be able to hide things from the police than to give up our own privacy.
All the mentions of Orwell's 1984 are apt.
On another wavelength, it's funny how the future didn't arrive at anywhere near the pace it was anticipated. We were supposed to have full-on Big Brother by 30 years ago - and certainly flying cars by now.
This ties in with Win 10 and the whole reason for this site - we've reached a point where OS tech is most definitely not moving forward. Win 8 already made it clear that serious stagnation was upon us, but I guess there were a few long-time true tech projects (ReFS?) being finished still and plenty of bugs to be fixed. Now it's all backward motion.
Who benefits? Lazy people?
It looks like there will come a day when no software developer alive will be able to code operating system code.
"Seems interesting that we have reached a stage where we feel personal privacy is already threatened so badly by government that we'd rather have bad guys be able to hide things from the police than to give up our own privacy."
Bad guys have always hid things and always will. My point is that law enforcement already has 99% of what they need and are still doing a lousy job. The don't want to do good old fashioned police work anymore. They are getting lazy. Yes it takes, stakeouts, interviews, and warrants. This is our system and it has served us.
This is not so much about privacy as it is liberty. Freedom to think, to associate, to buy, read, and discuss things without recriminations. Freedom to have financial and health data private. That includes SSN's, IRS! The freedom against having all this metadata used against you in a Minority Report kind of way.
If you know you are always being watched, it changes behavior, it changes societies, and not for the better.
Post by Bayer A.User on Feb 29, 2016 16:15:44 GMT -6
MHO, Cook is making a political statement to a certain segment of society.He painted himself into a corner. It would have been so much easier if apple had quietly cracked the phone and gave the feds what it found. 2Years ago or so they said that apple would no longer be able to do that with the latest generation iphone. Anybody REALLY believe that ?
Bayer, I think that you are missing the larger points here. Many of those points are made in the stories outlined above. Post Snowden, we are all fully aware of the abuses of government now that they have rolled back the protections put into place after Watergate. No I don't believe that they cannot now crack the phone. Yes, I do believe that they are currently working on technologies that will do exactly that in the very near future.
If you remember the Phil Zimmerman case from the 90's, they basically ruined his life for a period of time over PGP, and then dismissed the case. But at the same time similar encryption was available from overseas sources. The same is true now.
Post by Bayer A.User on Mar 1, 2016 6:27:31 GMT -6
I believe Apple as a corporation can not be legally compelled to "give away the keys to the kingdom" so to speak. If an extended legal fight goes on,they have the deep pockets to match the DOJ.
Mr.Cook is on a self serving crusade. Less about personal privacy principles than about his own reputation. If he's not careful , the current gen iphone will become the hardware of choice for criminal organizations. Yet, its obvious that his attitude is "Stick it to the man" straight from the '70s. We shall see.
I believe Apple as a corporation can not be legally compelled to "give away the keys to the kingdom" so to speak. If an extended legal fight goes on,they have the deep pockets to match the DOJ.
Mr.Cook is on a self serving crusade. Less about personal privacy principles than about his own reputation. If he's not careful , the current gen iphone will become the hardware of choice for criminal organizations. Yet, its obvious that his attitude is "Stick it to the man" straight from the '70s. We shall see.
I might agree if he was out on a island with this. But he has the support of most of Silicon Valley, and ALL of the technologists involved in encryption and security. Even the NSA.
Today Tuesday March 1 at 1:00pm EST www.c-span.org/ Hearing on Encryption and Federal Investigations
Encryption and Federal Investigations Witnesses, including FBI Director James Comey and Apple General Counsel Bruce Sewell, testify at a House Judiciary Committee hearing on the FBI’s demand that Apple assist in unlocking an iPhone used by one of the San Bernardino shooters.
Post by Bayer A.User on Mar 1, 2016 9:45:24 GMT -6
You caught me at a good time,Mike. Not working today(sick as a dog) Will fire up the tube and watch c-span this afternoon.
There are two parallel stories here.As usual the truth is somewhere in the middle. story#1, The feds seek to legally compell(force) Apple to create /provide workaround to the local password on the current gen iphone. story#2, A snarky self righteous ceo of a very successful tech company makes a name for himself as the stalwart champion
Food for thought- Any chance that this is all about :Leftcoast Apple basically saying "Don't blame us and our technology for your lax gun laws and the resulting mass shootings ? If the scenario was about a school- bus full of autistic children about to be sold into the international sex trade, then i think Tim Cook's response would be absolute and immediate cooperation with Federal Law enforcement and it would be front page news.
Last Edit: Mar 1, 2016 9:58:27 GMT -6 by Bayer A.User
Post by Bayer A.User on Mar 1, 2016 10:45:13 GMT -6
Unfortunately the big tech giants are political,these days. MSFT is just as guilty. MSNBC is an example of their "spin". I've said it before, I liked MSFT a lot more when they were just a really good software company. Those days are gone. ..
We are conditioned en masse to give up liberty for security. Does the following sound right at first blush?
More security is better.
True, by simple emotional response, right? Feeling secure is a good thing. How could this statement be even a little bit wrong?
Some might even say, "Who could or would argue against more and better security? You? You must have something to hide!" These are of course the most virtuous people. Except when they aren't.
Mike (and Apple) ask the very pertinent question, with regard to more security:
At what cost?
We can only imagine the downsides of "more security is better" by thinking cerebrally, and for a while. Pretty much only the broadest thinkers will finally get it. It takes context, it takes learning, it takes more than a moment's thought.
Otherwise it's decision by knee-jerk reaction - does that sound like something the public today, immersed in texting and tabloids, might do? Hm, emotion vs. deep thought - guess which one will win based on the decision of the masses.
It's possible most of the strife and failure to advance in the history of the world has been experienced because the pursuit of more security has come at very great cost, which was never considered appropriate to discuss.
Let's not forget, this is the day and age where we police are maiming or killing unarmed people during traffic stops or questioning on the street. Criminals are bad, no question, but also... Some of the officials - and I don't mean all of them - entrusted to care for our security aren't exactly perfect either.
It's my fond hope that whatever organization decides this matter - be it in the courts or on capitol hill - will think broadly and long enough to seriously consider the cost. Then, once the decision is made, any people or companies compelled to act better damned sure do what they're told.
Post by Bayer A.User on Mar 1, 2016 11:39:29 GMT -6
The word that is tossed around is Precedent. All the talking heads argue about how this decision will carry forward . I believe that the current ios does in fact have an encoded workaround and it is within apple's capability to cooperate with law enforcement according to the law of the land and our constitution while maintaining the security and privacy of its customers. The problem is that this has become so public now and a matter of "who will blink first" . No one wants to show their cards just yet.
Post by Locutus deBorg on Mar 1, 2016 12:32:48 GMT -6
> if it was a school bus full of any children
the problem there is the bus is still full of living people who could potentially be saved
the problem with the current case is any "evidence" garnered from unlocking the iPhone is useless for "Prosecution" of the deceased perps
and anything they might find regarding any other connections / contacts they may have had will still be useless if the contacts are located elsewhere on the globe
eg. oh we found the name of some contacts located in downtown Dubai, does that now translate to "we better bomb the shit out of Dubai for this shooting"
I find the lack of configuration options disturbing !
I felt a great disturbance in the force.. as if millions of win 7 systems suddenly cried out in terror.
I think we need to keep politics out of this. This is one of a very few bipartisan issues. I disagree with Bayer again, this is a technical and legal matter. Making everything a left or right issue just obfuscates the important things.
For example, can a legal statute from colonial days now compel a private corporate to create something that does not exist.
Post by Bayer A.User on Mar 1, 2016 13:44:58 GMT -6
As R-Darrell Issa stated, unlocking that phone was well within the capabilities of Apple techs. According to Mr.Comey they said no thanx "we shall see you in court" Remember: this is about a four digit local passcode. 10 wrong guesses and it wipes the flash memory. The phone did not belong to the dead shooters, it was owned by the their employer. Apparently the employers gave permission for access to it.
What Issa asked was about the FBI capability to remove the nonvolatile memory and work on it outside the phone. If the auto wipe would be defeated doing this, I don't know. If the passcode is more than four digits, and we don't know that it isn't, the whole point is moot as it would take hundreds of years to brute force it. Comey is uninformed on technical details and should had had someone there to do that.
My iphones have had 4 digit passcodes as the only available option, up untill my recent iphone6plus purchase. fingerprint AND 4 digit passcode options
According to Bruce Sewell,Apple General Counsel, if you get locked out of it for any reason there is nothing they can do to help you. As a working man myself, my fingers have often been burned and blistered to the point where a fingerprint scanner would'nt work. I'm sure you can relate,Dozer.
<Rick> Good video. It's almost hard to believe that at one time Windows 98 was the resource hog, but even then, it still ran circles around what Windows 10 can do on today's modern hardware and look a heck of alot better doing it.
May 25, 2021 22:55:12 GMT -6
<Rick> As stated elsewhere, So much for the launch of Windows 11, "The Great Crash." Myself, I had a hard time getting into the site listed above, when I did get in, the video was partly done and then it crashed. There has been many other reports of crashing.
Jun 24, 2021 9:52:33 GMT -6
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<Rick> I see Microsoft has been very quick to pull down reports of site crashing regarding the Launch of Windows 11 on the Microsoft Insiders forum.
Jun 24, 2021 9:57:31 GMT -6
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<Rick> The rebroadcast is working okay.
Jun 24, 2021 11:00:25 GMT -6
<Rick> With reports of people being able to install the dev-edition of Windows 11 on machines not meeting spec, I thought I would give it a what-the-heck try. Lucky me, I'm caught in the downloading, doesn't meet spec, clearing, re-downloading loop on my machine!
Jul 2, 2021 7:08:46 GMT -6
<Rick> I've recently purchased a license for ArcaOS from www.arcanoae.com/ to play with. First impressions, it's still OS/2, but it now has a Linux twist to it.
Jul 2, 2021 7:32:53 GMT -6
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<dozrguy> laptop shit out and am stuck buying a new one. os win11 as fucked as win10 was?
Oct 2, 2021 12:56:10 GMT -6
<Rick> Let's see ..., my impression of Windows 11 is that it is a spruced up version of Windows 10 requiring a 64-bit processor plus a piece of security hardware that is less than 4 years old in order for it to run.
Oct 4, 2021 18:25:49 GMT -6
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<Rick> On the plus side, Microsoft is supposed to be supporting Windows 10 for some time to come for those of us still using systems with I7 or older processors.
Oct 4, 2021 18:44:35 GMT -6
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<dozrguy> i tried installing win10 om the 'shitout' pc this morning usung media creation. EPIC FAIL! went into an endless bootloop. win7 reinstalled just fine
Oct 21, 2021 11:23:38 GMT -6
<dozrguy> STILL so much bullshit and so little time for the kiddie ideas from the hill. My new laptop (MSI GE 11-UH461) would be an awesome "10" machine but because of Winblows I can only give it a "2"......wasted $3500
Oct 27, 2021 9:36:47 GMT -6
<Rick> Hello. Just checking in.
Mar 17, 2022 10:46:54 GMT -6
<isidroco> Each new w10 update adds >100000 useless files to \Windows\Servicing\LCU\Package_for_RollupFix... folders. Even in a SSD takes time to delete that stuff. In each version they manage to worsen stuff.
Mar 27, 2022 16:14:51 GMT -6
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<dozerguy> still traffic here?
Oct 9, 2022 17:32:44 GMT -6
<Rick> No, there does not seem to be very much traffic these days. I still check in from time to time.
Oct 9, 2022 20:08:58 GMT -6